Guest: Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Host: Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Announcer
Audiences expect a much higher level of engagement from journalists and even just a couple of years ago and also it doesn't just have to be on your side, you know, people can take and criticize or praise your article on their own blogs and now the picture of how you interact with your audience is much more complex.
This is Podtech.net. Welcome to MarketingVoices, featuring the fresh perspectives of innovative marketing leaders and examining how social media is changing marketing throughout the world. Here is your host, Jennifer Jones.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Hi! This is Jennifer Jones on MarketingVoices. Today, we have the blogs editor for The Guardian and his name is Kevin Anderson and The Guardian, for those of you who don't know what is it really, the best daily newspaper on the World Wide Web. I've had the opportunity as I have searched around to really read it quite a bit and I was very excited to have Kevin be able to join me today on MarketingVoices. So, Kevin, thank you very much for coming in, blogging in and talking to me.
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Glad to be here, Jennifer.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Great and what I wanted to talk to Kevin today about is a couple of things. I wanted to get a sense for what he is doing as the blogs editor for The Guardian where he is responsible for management strategy and leading by doing for The Guardian Unlimited blogs and then I also wanted to get his perspective on the importance of his job as it relates to the importance of a journalist job and how blogging is really impacting the role of journalist. So, it's a sort of a two-tier Podcast today that we are going to get into two different subjects. So, without anymore ado, Kevin, can you give us a background on The Guardian first?
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Well, The Guardian is one of the largest quality dailies in the UK. It's probably, and as you say, one of the most forward-thinking newspapers in the UK as far as the Internet goes. I mean, they have been online for a coming up on 10 years. They launched their first blogs in 2001 and have built that up to a stable of -- it depends on how you count it, we have 12 titles right now, 12 or 13 titles but those are sort of huge sprawling blog projects, kind of typical of what you might think of the Huffington Post, one is called 'Comment is Free' where in the last year since we launched that there has been over a thousand commenters, bloggers -- a huge range of people commenting on all the topics under the Sun that have been in the news and we -- just a month ago launched this new Arts and Entertainment blog, which is again very similar to 'Comment is Free,' similar model where we have got art reviewers, film reviewers, theater, television, and radio talking about all kinds of cultural events in the UK and around the world. So, a very forward-thinking paper, we know that our future is in getting closer to our audience, involving our audience more in what we do and then we also know that our future is multimedia. So, that's one of the reasons why I left after eight years with the BBC and joined The Guardian because they are so forward thinking and it's exciting to be at a place that sees the future and wants to make it happen on a daily basis.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Do you think that other newspapers and publications should become much more like The Guardian?
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
I think so, and the interesting thing is that The Guardian is one of the national newspapers in the UK. So, it covers, it attempts to cover the entire UK, which is similar to sort of large regional papers here in the United States. I think actually, we see at The Guardian many opportunities for us to build community into what we are doing, but I think there are even greater opportunities for smaller newspapers a hyperlocal offerings, I mean there are several projects in the United States, there is Bluffton Today in the Carolinas, it's done by my friend, Steve Yelvington, which is one of the best community news projects in the country. There are several smaller projects, the Greeley Tribune in Colorado -- there is a blogging editor there, so interestingly enough. I mean, I think the large newspapers, like The Guardian or The New York Times, The Washington Post are definitely getting into community but you don't have to be huge to do these things that's the greatest thing about blogging. It's very simple and very inexpensive technology and like I said, it gets you closer to your audience, which is quite honestly going to save your business these days in newspapers.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
So, besides what you just brought up, how do you think blogging is really changing the role of journalist?
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Well, it's interesting because I think the one thing about blogging that's great is technology is so simple. Our journalists find it much easier to blog than to use our traditional content management system. There are things we can do in the field now and for six years I was the Washington reporter and producer for the BBC News Website, the BBCNews.com. So, I know a lot about the challenges of getting information back from the Website when you are in the field and now blogging just makes it so much easier. I think that the bigger challenges for journalists really are cultural challenges. I think that Bruno Patino, Le Monde Interactif, said it best when he says, "Our audience is in our newsroom now," and I think the cultural challenges actually far outweigh the technical challenges that we have.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Wait, wait, wait. What does that mean that our audience is in the newsroom now? What does he mean by that?
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Well, I think it means a lot of things. I think it means the audiences can expect a right of response when they see something in the newspaper now, they don't have to send off an angry letter to the letters page. They can leave a comment directly on the blog and I think that audiences expect a much higher level of engagement from journalists than even just a couple of years ago and also it doesn't just have to be on your site. People can take and criticize or praise your article on their own blogs and now the picture of how you interact with the audience is much more complex, but whereas it use to be, a kind of joke -- it used to be like Moses delivering the tablets from the mountains that's how we used to deliver, journalism that was a basically, a one way process.
We deliver news and occasionally they deliver letters back to us, publishing out and commenting and now it's a much more dynamic involved process where, I guess the way I say to our journalists is, before you would write an affiliated piece because that's what you would have to -- get it out at press time and that was the best you could do. Now, it's a much more complicated position, you might deliver a part of the piece at 11, build on it by 12 and another blog post build on at by 3, taking users comments, taking their experiences and suddenly have a much richer picture. Those journalists who do it right can be better journalists, but journalists, who resist it end up being in conflict with their audience, which is not really where we want to be.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Interesting, so do you find that you've got people who agree with you, that are sort of all time journalist or did they fight that and then the younger people kind of are much more agreeable on this idea?
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Well, it's interesting. I mean a very famous blogger in the UK is Slugger O'Toole, he's a journalist called Mick Fealty and he writes for many of the mainstream publications in Northern Ireland and the Republican Ireland and he is very much a traditional journalist and he's got a few years on me, but he -- we met recently in a tavern in London, and we basically were singing from the (Inaudible) very similar. I don't think it's sort of a young guns versus old establishment types. I do realize though that it is -- it is a feature that's not evenly distributed in journalism. There are some people who, I have had (Inaudible) journalist, The Guardian saying, "Why do we let these people comment on our site?"
That's minority opinion. Thanks with The Guardian, but there are some people, some journalists who don't feel that we should be doing this that is, it detracts from our brand that it somehow detracts from the reputation of their challenge down the blog. And so, there is - I'm not saying my opinion is the majority opinion, I think it's probably still maybe a bleeding edge opinion, but I think more and more journalists and editors and publishers are realizing that, this is the reality, this is the markets that we deal with, it's not whether we'd like it to be different, this is just -- this is the reality we have to adjust to now.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Interesting. So, in terms of challenges that you're really facing, again besides the one you've already described, what else are you finding that's really driving you kind of crazy in this role, that you are known as blogs editor for The Guardian?
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Well, it's interesting because I think there is traditionally... editors are having to kind of rethink their role or maybe I should, probably more accurately say, "I'd like them to rethink their role." They're use to sort of carefully lying out pages and putting a lot of effort in commissioning writers to write things, and I kind of said to them, "Well, don't worry so much about the layout of the pages, I'll read the paper and then I said, "See, I don't see all the pretty pictures in it, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm more interested in the information, and there are a lot of people who're reading our blogs and RSS readers, and all that effort you're putting into layout is completely lost on them."
So, don't worry so much about that, don't worry so much about -- the way that I say is that, "Interactivity triumphs celebrity," which means, I don't care if you have the biggest name in British comment. I care that you have a writer who is willing to engage with the audience and is willing to have a conversation, that's more important to me than having the biggest name on the planet, who you have to pay lots of money to. So, it's an argument and I still have to win in some cases, but I think the more that we are asking our audience to participate, the more that they are responding. I think those help boost my side of the argument, and at the end of the day what we're really talking about is, one definition of Web 2.0 that I've heard Tim O'Reilly say is that, "The sites that win, are the sites where the value for the user increases to greater level of participation."
So, the more that we get people to participate, the more valuable they find The Guardian site, the more they'll keep coming back and the more they'll participate, and it's a great virtual cycle, the great self reinforcing business model. I think that's where the real opportunities are. So, it's a little bit lateral thinking for traditional editors, not to think so much about layout, but to think about interactivity, to focus on the audience, not just on what they think the finished product is, because in an essence really the article used to be the finished product, now it's just a one step in the process.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Very, very interesting, so well said. How do people approach you? Just a few more questions before we end. In terms of PR people go after editors and send them pitch notes and all of that. I know that they've asked me well, do they actually email you, do they call you, do and put an entry on your blog? How do people approach you?
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Well, my better half Suw Charman, who writes on our blog Strange Attractor. She is into PR blogging and we look at it this way. I mean, if we write a blog post and we say, here's the problem I'm having, and it's relates to a product that you have. We're probably going to be more interested; if you help us solve the problem we've talked about on our blog or talked about online. Pitches from the middle of nowhere on products we're only vaguely interested, that in our spam filter be perfectly honest. You know but I think too, it's what I tell my journalists that in another world that we have is Customer Relationship Management and that is, if somebody has a problem with our site, we have to be responsive. If somebody has praise for our site, that's great, but if somebody has something they'd like to work better, we have to respond to that, and maybe we can't respond tomorrow, but we at least need to let people know that we're responsive. The blog that we write was recently listed by Edelman PR as one of the 50 most influential in the UK, and now suddenly we're getting all of these PR pitches to evaluate products, and that's not really why we blog.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Yeah, I know, no kidding.
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
And so, some of it is not really well placed, we'll praise products that we like and that we use, but we don't necessarily have the time to evaluate a bunch of products. So, I guess the thing is -- it's a -- just as I think that, journalism isn't much more complicated proposition that it was in the past, I think public relation is much more complicated, but if you can through monitoring blogs and monitoring how your brands talked about in blogs, be responsive to your customers; that's where you have to be. I'll give you a perfect example, so Suw and I recently fixed our iBook and we used these guides online, ifixit.com, and we made a little time lapse video of it, and we sent it off to the CEO. The next day the CEO -- well, we sent it off to their support line, we didn't know who we were sending it off, it was just a web form.
The CEO responds the next day saying, "This is great, can we use it with music and send you a couple of T-shirts?" Well, yeah, it's great. Now we're going to be happy customers. That's the kind of just little thing, and whether it's pitching to me as a blogs editor, or whether it's pitching to everyone else. The way that I look at it, here is the thing is, the tools that we can build into The Guardian Website, where our customers actually become our biggest advocates online and spread Guardian content and the Guardian brand online, that's great, whether it's to, del.icio.us bookmarks or Digg or Reddit whatever that's brilliant. So, I want my customers to be my greatest salesman, if you will.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Okay. So wait, so wait. Kevin so, in terms of just quickly before we end the Podcast. The best way to get to you is -- you sort of summarize it for us.
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Well, the best way is, if I write a blog post on my personal blog or somewhere on The Guardian, and you think you have a product that can solve the problem, that's probably -- I'm going to respond to that.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Okay.
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
If you just send me an unsolicited pitch, that's banned to me.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Okay. So, anyway I really thank you for our participation. I feel like we can go on for hours here, but what I'd like to do is, just ensure that people know, how to find The Guardian? If you could just give us your blog, that would be great.
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Well, the main Guardian site is just; Guardian.co.uk and you can find all our blogs at Blogs.guardian.co.uk.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
Okay, perfect. So, I've been taking to Kevin Anderson who's the blogs editor for The Guardian, and he's taken this job just about two months ago and he s responsible for the management strategy and the leading by doing at the Guardian. Thank you very much, Kevin for being on MarketingVoices.
Kevin Anderson - The Guardian Unlimited
Thank you very much Jennifer.
Jennifer Jones - MarketingVoices
You're welcome and for all of the listeners until next week, may all the voices you hear, be MarketingVoices.