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Marketing Voices: Building Stronger Brands with Blogs, Podcasts, and Wikis

Phil Gomes: Blogs, you know the expectation is that you have to be open and willing to and then dedicated to a conversation. Not every company is quite ready for that yet. I think it takes quite a bit of cultural change within a company to truly embrace that and see it as more of an opportunity than a threat.

Announcer: This is PodTech.net. Welcome to Marketing Voices, featuring the fresh perspectives of innovative marketing leaders, and examining how social media is changing marketing throughout the world. Here's your host, Jennifer Jones.

Jennifer Jones: Hello, I'm Jennifer Jones, host of Marketing Voices, a podcast for PodTech. In today's show, we're going to delve into the inner section of social media and corporate communications. We'll be discussing how companies can use social media such as blogs and podcasts to build stronger brands and communications programs. I have a leading expert with me here today on this podcast, his name is Phil Gomes. He's senior council bottom line communications for Edelman PR. Edelman is a large agency, in fact the largest independent public relations agency in the world. Its about 240 million and about 44 offices strong. They're very expert in the intersection of emerging social media and corporate communications as a firm. So Phil, welcome to Marketing Voices.

Phil Gomes: Glad to be here.

Jennifer Jones: So my first question to start out is really as an expert in this whole area of social media, what social media do you really like best today for use in corporate communications work?

Phil Gomes: I kinda have to blush and chuckle at the term expert. Of course, some of us are a bit more spun up and passionate about social media than others, but I'm fond of telling everybody that we're all really in the learning game. You know, I was messing around with Technorati several months ago, doing various blog searching, conversation researching, and I was thinking to myself wouldn't it be great if you could dial up or down what blogs come up in the results in terms of how well read these blogs are. Two weeks later they came up with something that did exactly that, so things are moving so fast that I'll gladly inherit the title of expert for the purposes of this conversation, but I do stress to people that this is a creative time when we're all in the learning game, and its really a lot of fun. But as a more direct answer to your question, what social media do I like most when it comes to corporate communications? I stress that very advisably that that's very different than more consumery kind of things. I have to say actually I'm very excited about podcasting. It's definitely shown in terms of the correspondence crosses my desktop, both real and virtual...

Jennifer Jones: I have to interrupt you a second, this was not a setup to all the listeners out there. I really didn't know what his answer was going to be. I don't want them to think that just because I'm doing a podcast and we're PodTech that I set you up.

Phil Gomes: No no no no, I tend to be very extemporaneousness, and its both a blessing and a curse in this business. But in any case, podcasting actually, because... Now I know blogs get all the press, right? I mean, I don't believe business week did a breathless cover about podcasting yet, and they certainly did in May of 2005, of course Podcasting has made the cover of Forbes, and they did their famous "Attack of the Blogs" hit piece late last year. But when it comes to podcasting, I'm passionate about it for several reasons. Number one, I spent four years in college radio, and those skills had to go somewhere. It went to podcasting, which is great. But you know, for example, a lot of companies were like lets investigate blogs, lets investigate blogs, and its very easy I think for someone in the environment to like oh, huh? Blogs? Sure. But, that does nobody any good. Just using the tools for the sake of using a tool. I had developed... What I called it before blogged checklist. The before I blogged checklist is something that somebody can go down, and if they answer no to any one of the questions, they might consider perhaps another online marketing vehicle. Of course, blogs... The expectation is that you have to be open and willing and dedicated to and open to a conversation. Not every company is quite ready for that yet. It takes quite a bit of cultural change within a company to truly embrace that and see it as more of an opportunity than a threat. But when podcasting comes out, right, so think about what you're going to do to this podcast when you piece it together, right? Chances are that its going to have some front matter in the beginning, there's going to be some audio production involved, right?

Jennifer Jones: Right.

Phil Gomes: Now, at the end there may be some stuff that wraps it up for a little bit... You may or may not put music behind it. When you talk about podcasts, what tends to happen is that you talk about something that is generally a lot less fly by the seat of your pants than a truly credible blog is. Some companies are absolutely ready to jump into the blog market with both feet. But for companies that maybe want to experiment a bit, but are perhaps a bit gun shy about it, when you look at what goes into podcasting, and its some editing, and very conservative companies like to hear that word... Editing, production, and you know, as long as it doesn't come off as too stilted. Sometimes even a script helps. I think that is one way large companies can participate in some form of social media in a way that is comfortable for them.

Jennifer Jones: Great. Now can you give me some examples then either with podcasts, or also with blogs or maybe wikis, or other forms of communication in terms of work you've done with companies. I know you don't want to go into a lot of clients... Edelman, and get very specific. We sort of used that as a caveat up front. But in other situations where you have really seen things work using social media.

Phil Gomes: One of the examples that I absolutely love bring up, and this isn't about a client, but its one I bring up when I tell companies both large and small what perhaps they should aspire to is Activewords software, and the work that Buzz Brookman has done. He's the CEO of that company. He's a lawyer turned Entrepreneur. I had seen him speak at a conference, the blog business summit of August 2005. Its just sort of walking me through how he helped develop very passionate users of the software. Part of it I think has to do with the quite generous trial period that Activewords offers. Its 60 days, which is good. I should have explained what Activewords does. It helps you bind certain key words to what are otherwise fairly complex processes on a PC. So if I wanted to all at once fire up Microsoft Outlook and send you an email, I might type Jennifer into my computer and boom, the brooms from Fantasia start working in my computer and everything is done. Its incredibly useful. But, it's really interesting in that it feels to me that Activewords, they actively search for their own name in the bloggosphere, and the name of their principles and that sort of thing, I was reading online. Its pretty tough to find a negative review of Activewords. That has just as much to do with the fact that its great software. But it also has to do with the fact that they're very serious about what people online are saying. So actually, this is actually born out. If you go to their website, there's a section there about what a typical company would normally have about their press clippings and stuff like that. But you click on that, and just to kinda show you where their focus is, blog postings are promoted higher in their look what people are saying about us page than perhaps mainstream media type placements and the like...

Jennifer Jones: But to that point, I thought a lot of bloggers hated that, when they were actually promoted that way. They didn't really want to be that... And to the point about so your whole point about looking at this as a good case study is about how they really use blogging to promote the product, that's kind of your point here?

Phil Gomes: That's part of it, right? So, these are people of course they're linking to people on that page who are absolutely passionate about that software, and feels that it has solved a very important user interface problem, but also part of it as well, you know the personality that I believe Buzz has crafted around himself on his blog. He has a personal blog where he's just as likely to talk about Activewords as his latest trip, or whatever. So there's a personality around, and you want to figure out you know, where's Buzz lately?

Jennifer Jones: Yeah. Where's Buzz buzzing?

Phil Gomes: Yeah, exactly. So its defiantly one of my most read blogs. And Hugh Mcleod who's somewhat famous for his cartoons on the back of business cards, right? He had this one cartoon which I blew up from business card size to 8.5 x 11 and stuck on the door of my office, and it says "blogging requires passion and authority which leaves out most people."


[laughter]

Phil Gomes: I stuck that on my door, and you look at somebody like Buzz, and you know, there's passion and authority.

Jennifer Jones: So those are two key things, so passion and authority and authenticity I'm told too in blogging is very important. I do want to get back to my questions though about posting blogs on corporate websites. I was told by bloggers that they didn't like that. It was too much like they were promoting the company or promoting a product, that it was viewed that way.

Phil Gomes: You know, that's a relationship between the company and the blogger. In some cases I can see where a blogger can say You know what, by linking to me in that fashion, it would give the reasonable person a presumption that a relationship exists where none might. I would guarantee that most companies that would try that are probably quite sensitive to that relationship, and would take it on a case by case basis. The people that they link to who are talking about them are the ones that are their most fervent fans. These are people who love the software so much that they'll actively promote it in that fashion. You brought up... You said the A word.

Jennifer Jones: Authenticity.

Phil Gomes: Authenticity. How this word has been used has been used has changed so much in just the past year alone, its actually kind of funny.

Jennifer Jones: And this is with blogs.

Phil Gomes: This is with anything. This is with anything. All right? Because what I hear at conferences all the time, and that I read in marketing blogs and that sort of things is referring to authenticity as just another tactic that can be bolted onto a plan. You can sit at a conference and actually hear things like a blog is a good way to create authenticity. Hogwash! You know? Its really interesting the way authenticity is described as a tonic or an elixir or a spice or something that can hypnotize people into loving you. The perception of authenticity is most defiantly a desirable result. I think companies want to be perceived as authentic. I would venture to say that most companies strive to be that way. I know a lot of people might disagree.

Jennifer Jones: Well I think its used more in the sense of so that companies don't get a blogger or a person to ghost write a blog, so its actually the voice of the person, or if its a company blog at least its the people writing. Its not all ghost written. At least that's the way I've always assumed it has been used.

Phil Gomes: Exactly. I mean, nobody wants to be or should aspire to be the next pets.com sock puppet. That's one of the things that I hear at this company I... I went on a nation wide tour. I kinda have sort of an evangelist roll at the company...

Jennifer Jones: At Edelman?

Phil Gomes: At Edelman, yes. I've been to almost all of our offices in the US, and one of the things that I tell people is that at least on my watch, you know, ghostwriting is off the table when it comes to Edelman's offerings in this space. There are two principal reasons for this I believe. One is that there's rule number one in the hacker's manifesto is that information wants to be free. So people who run around making their marketing plans based on whether or not they can quote unquote get away with something, well they were bad people before and they're worse people now. And you know, the idea being that if a blog is ghost written its going to be found out, pure and simple.

Jennifer Jones: Right. That's all the assumptions. Right.

Phil Gomes: It is going to be discovered. Either through attrition at the company, people leaving and telling competitors. Maybe they leave for a competitor. Oh yeah, that blog is ghost written. You know, word of mouth works. And also the way we use language identifies us, right? So lets say that one guy is writing three blogs for three different companies, I think its really really difficult for one guy to maintain three different voices, and that person would be... Its just a bad idea all around. But number two, and most critically, I don't think that an agency should ghost write a blog skimpily because it would have a cascade effect across its entire client base. So lets say an agency is representing Widgets Inc. And Widgets Inc. Has its blog ghost written by agency XYZ. It gets exposed that this blog is basically a sock puppet, inauthentic to the core. Bloggers know how to research. They know how to use Google. Ok, so agency XYZ is ghostwriting this blog, why should I trust any blog from a company that has any relationship whatsoever to agency XYZ. And so it has a cascade effect throughout the entire client base, and so for that reason in the discussion of authenticity, those are the two reasons why an agency that thinks that they can make piles of money ghostwriting blogs is simply fooling themselves.

Jennifer Jones: So to that point, how do you think that clients should be working today with a PR firm? I've heard a lot of people say well gosh, well you probably know Shel Israel's "Naked Conversations" is saying look, you don't need a PR firm anymore. You really don't have to have somebody kind of smiling and dialing so to speak. So how do you look at having a company work with a PR firm like Edelman when it comes to social media.

Phil Gomes: I think an agency primary role in that scenario is helping the client find the voice Online, and with that expertise sort of knowing where all the land mines are. I tend to think unfortunately when it comes to the topic of should companies blog, frankly, far too many very loud voices are basically frothing out of both sides of their mouth.

Jennifer Jones: So how do you actually find a voice? How do you make a company find a voice?

Phil Gomes: Well let me finish my point.

Jennifer Jones: Ok.

Phil Gomes: Let me finish my point. I think there are a lot of people out there that I like to describe them as frothing out of both sides of their mouth, ok? Because when a company... A lot of people are running around saying that all companies should blog. Or most companies should blog. Or a company "doesn't get it." I hate that term. A company doesn't "get it" unless they're blogging. You hear that all the time. But the second... The second a company tries to do that, these same voices are like look at their blog. I'm going to jump up and down for this reason this reason this reason this reason. And its a completely unproductive conversation. So I think that's what scares a lot of companies from blogging perhaps. There's little land mine sort of expectations that sort of confront companies, and I think part of where an agency can help, and an agency that is intellectually honest about how it and other companies participate in the bloggosphere, is when they're counseling clients just saying ok, if you're really honest of achieving this certain objective, in terms of you know... Having an honest conversation with these various stakeholders online, then you really have to consider ok. This is the tool for the job, and it could be any number of tools. This is how you do it. This is the optimal way to do it. These are very sub-optimal ways to do it that we should probably avoid. Counseling them in that fashion. All right? And that over time, along with again that passion and authority thing, help a company identify who their most credible spokesperson, you know, Online evangelist is, if they don't already have one. All right? And most companies already do. I think that's where an agency can help. On top of whatever interactive services they provide. They have quite a history there.

Jennifer Jones: So that's what you mean about finding their voice. That whole idea of trying to determine who it is inside the company who sort of has the soul and the culture and a sense of the company and they can write about it, talk about it, whatever.

Phil Gomes: Exactly, and has the power to do so. You could easily get down the road and get to a point where IR sniffs it out, legal sniffs it out, unless you heard me say the word empowered. And I'm not saying that in the late 90s management textbook sense. I'm saying that in the very honest sense, where you have to say ok, here's a person where... You have to make sure that person's every word isn't going to be scrubbed by 17 levels of administrivia. Because that's a good way to kill a blog. And actually, you can tell which... You can go to a site and tell that this post obviously went through the law firm of Dewey Cheatem and Hal before it got Online.

Jennifer Jones: Right. So you know, a question in terms that has come up a lot is I've been talking about Marketing Voices and what we're going to be covering is what can go wrong with social media? Not so much focusing on blogs, but try to focus maybe on wikis or podcasts or... What's the downside of using that kind of social media?

Phil Gomes: I tend to argue that if you approach it responsibly, there isn't really a downside. I think if one approaches it responsibly, the only conceivable downside is... And I think a lot of companies underestimate the time commitment it takes once you initiate that conversation and are honest about continuing it.

Jennifer Jones: So, time commitment how? In terms of the time it takes to actually do social media?

Phil Gomes: Exactly. And to do it correctly. I mean, I told a lot of people if perhaps they watch a blog or whatever, congratulations, you've reached the starting line. You've reached the starting gate. If you look at any one sort of word of mouth tactic, or social media tactic, and you look at the deployment of it as your ultimate goal, you already failed. People need to look at when they enter into these things for the first time, they need to look at it as the starting gate, and they'll find over time that its very very rewarding, and I'd also have to say very self-regulating. A lot of people like to look at the bloggosphere as sort of a merciless drumhead court.

Jennifer Jones: Now want does that mean? Merciless drumhead court. What does that mean?

Phil Gomes: Oh, the idea... Summary severe judgments on companies or on people Online. People sort of look at it as this lawless, wild frontier. And actually it can be that sometimes, and I think that's what makes it kind of fun. But also I find that people who participate at social media, if you look at the micro communities, and their... Its very very self-regulating in that if someone gets something wrong, people are sort of quick to jump up and say no no no, this is right. We did a study with Technoroti last fall, and about 820 some-odd bloggers filled out our survey.

Jennifer Jones: Wow, that's impressive.

Phil Gomes: One of the questions was what do you do if someone conclusively tells you that you blogged about something and you got it completely wrong. What is your response? And 88% of the bloggers that responded said that they would make the correction fly as high as the original error. And by that, they said things like they'd alter the original post and let you know that they'd done so. They'd say there's an update to this post by the way, I goofed. Some of them would say that I'd strike through the error and put the new data on there. Or they said I'd write a completely new post. All of these are ways by which the correction flies as high or even higher than the error. Let me contrast that to, you know, when you get a front page story on the s tragically important times journal or whatever, and you get it wrong, your only recourse is a postage stamp right next to a Bloomingdale's ad on page A29, right?

Jennifer Jones: Right.

Phil Gomes: So that's an important thing I tell companies. In fact, something very similar happened to us actually. Somebody put up a blog post that actually it was quite negative towards Edelman. It said something like Edelman is the agency that represents big tobacco. And it was funny because this posting happened late last year. We resigned all of or tobacco business in I think mid 2001. We hadn't represented big tobacco in a very long time. I mean, our reasons for doing so... I mean, I wasn't there at the time, but I think you can probably guess our reasons for doing so. So, it was our chief of staff I believe sent the blogger an email saying well actually, you got it wrong. We haven't done this in a while. As a matter of fact, a big portion of the revenue that came from that actually went to some kind of charity. And this guy, this blogger was happy to put up the correction. The guy must have been on his email or something, it went up almost immediately.

Jennifer Jones: Yeah, well that's good. Well see, to your point that's exactly why the media is good in that sense. So I'm conscious here of your time and the time.. I have one more question I want to ask you before we go. So what do you recommend as kind of your final though on who today is the best marketed company in your opinion. It doesn't have to be a technology company, it doesn't have to be a consumer packaged goods company, but I want to make sure I ask all of my guests on this show who they think is really the most awesomely marketed company today.

Phil Gomes: Wow. You just asked me to tell you the time, I'm about to tell you how to build a watch. [laughter] Because I'm a graduate student at USC Annenberg I'm getting my masters in Communications Management, and the first day of class our professor asked that question. So I'm going to tell you that story before I tell you this one. In any case, she asked this class or 30 or 40 people that very same question. And the company that received the most votes was Apple Computer.

Jennifer Jones: Yeah, I figured.

Phil Gomes: But do you want to know who tied for number two?

Jennifer Jones: Proctor and Gamble?

Phil Gomes: Nope, Axe, and Dove...

Jennifer Jones: Unilever, yeah?

Phil Gomes: Both of which are Edelman clients. [laughter] I was all to happy to take that to my boss. [laughter]

Jennifer Jones: Yeah, I was going to say...

Phil Gomes: But I'll tell you what my vote...

Jennifer Jones: Apple isn't an Edelman client, is it? Is Apple an Edelman client?

Phil Gomes: I believe it was at one time, but I'd have to go into the archives on that one. I believe it was at one time.

Jennifer Jones: So what was your answer? Was your answer Apple?

Phil Gomes: No, actually. Don't get me started on Apple. No, my answer is actually quite unconventional. Dean Guitars. I'm a guitar player. You know, Dean was a brand that sort of flew high and then went into stealth mode, and then I guess sort of in the mid to late 90s started coming back. And because she asked us what brand are you loyal to beyond all reason. And me, being a guitar player, being a metal head, being all these things, I remember my first Dean experience. I got it off of Ebay. A seven string guitar. For listeners who don't know that most guitars have six strings. Dean made a seven string guitar, all right? And you know, based on all the stuff I had been reading about Dean in magazines like Guitar World, I had been reading Online, and some of my... They're great ads, really leveraging their high profile endorsers. Things like that. The late Dimebag Darryl from Damageplan and Pantera. That I just think they do a great job, and their presentation is apparently a must see at the... Its called the NAM show, the North Americans Music Merchants show...

Jennifer Jones: Oh, good.

Phil Gomes: The personality that's crafted around the guitars... And they're great instruments. I mean, I love my seven string. I mean, that's probably not the answer you...

Jennifer Jones: Yeah. No. That's good, we'll have to have you back on Marketing Voices here and actually play the guitar as a lead in to the show next time.

Phil Gomes: Oh, I'd love to. There's a sample on my playing on one of my old podcasts when I ran a podcast on [xx].com.

Jennifer Jones: Oh good. Well that's a good lead in to everyone that wants to contact Phil. He has been nice enough to say that we can do so. His email is Phil.gomes@edelman.com. For any of those of you who like to send comments to Marketing Voices, you can do so at marketingvoices@PodTech.net.

Phil Gomes: Hey, can I put out a shout for Edelman Zones podcast. Yeah, we have our own podcast, and I am the host and you...


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